[00:00:00.080] The far-right Alternative for Germany
[00:00:01.920] party wins in a landslide in the eastern
[00:00:04.480] German state of Saxony on Halt, but it
[00:00:06.879] is unclear if the party will be able to
[00:00:08.639] form the country's first far-right state
[00:00:11.120] government since 1945.
[00:00:14.400] I'm Brent Goff in Berlin. DW News starts
[00:00:16.560] right now.
[00:00:29.119] And it's good to have you on this
[00:00:30.240] election night. The far-right
[00:00:31.840] Alternative for Germany party is
[00:00:33.440] projected to win by a landslide in a
[00:00:35.440] closely watched election in the eastern
[00:00:37.520] German state of Saxony Anhalt. But will
[00:00:40.079] it be able to form the country's first
[00:00:42.000] far-right state government since the end
[00:00:44.000] of World War II? That is the question
[00:00:46.480] tonight. Projections show the AFD
[00:00:48.640] received more than 44% of the vote.
[00:00:50.960] That's more than double its closest
[00:00:52.640] rivals, the conservative Christian
[00:00:54.399] Democrats. The AFD went into the vote
[00:00:57.199] seeking an absolute majority so that it
[00:00:59.440] could govern on its own. But now it may
[00:01:01.520] have to find a coalition partner if the
[00:01:03.760] results hold.
[00:01:06.159] And here are the latest results as vote
[00:01:08.400] counting continues. The AfD has 44% more
[00:01:12.400] than doubling its previous showing in
[00:01:14.479] the state. The conservative Christian
[00:01:16.479] Democrats, they saw their share tumble
[00:01:18.560] to under 18%.
[00:01:21.280] The Social Democrats received more than
[00:01:23.280] 9% just ahead of the left party and the
[00:01:26.799] Greens. And the left-wing populist BSW
[00:01:30.159] party has 5% just enough to get into the
[00:01:34.159] state parliament.
[00:01:36.000] Now, if these results hold, this would
[00:01:38.560] likely mean that the AFD
[00:01:41.040] would fall just short of the majority in
[00:01:43.119] parliament with 39 of the 83 seats. The
[00:01:46.159] CDU would have 16 seats. The Social
[00:01:48.720] Democrats, the Left Party, and the
[00:01:50.560] Greens would have eight seats each, and
[00:01:53.920] the BSW, it will have just made it past
[00:01:56.640] the 5% threshold to enter parliament
[00:01:59.680] with four seats.
[00:02:03.680] A short while ago, the party's state
[00:02:05.759] leader, Uric Ziggmund, claimed victory
[00:02:08.160] in a speech to his supporters. Here's
[00:02:10.319] some of what he had to say.
[00:02:14.239] >> My dear friends, this is a historic
[00:02:17.760] evening. We have made history.
[00:02:21.760] We are going to get our country back.
[00:02:24.080] And we start with Saxony Anhalt 44.5%.
[00:02:32.560] >> And the goal that we had at the time
[00:02:34.959] wasn't just realistic. It was exactly
[00:02:37.920] what the people of Saxony Anhelt wanted
[00:02:40.160] to see. This is going to shake all of
[00:02:43.920] Germany.
[00:02:45.440] What became clear in every interview and
[00:02:47.680] here tonight is of course that some
[00:02:49.760] people are downcast. But what we've seen
[00:02:52.400] is that most people know it's not just
[00:02:54.560] about Saxony Anhal. We're sending a
[00:02:57.120] signal for all of Germany because we
[00:02:59.360] found our way back to Germany. And this
[00:03:01.440] is a self-confidence signal we're
[00:03:03.200] sending out to the entire country.
[00:03:08.400] >> All right, let's pull in our political
[00:03:09.519] correspondent Matthew Moore. Now he is
[00:03:11.040] at AFD party headquarters in the state
[00:03:14.400] capital MDOG.
[00:03:16.319] Matthew, I mean if we listen to Olic
[00:03:19.760] Ziggwin's speech, I have to ask you is
[00:03:23.120] the AFD does it have a choice? Does it
[00:03:25.599] have to join a coalition if it wants to
[00:03:27.760] govern?
[00:03:32.560] At the moment, Brent, it looks like it
[00:03:34.560] will need to form a coalition if it
[00:03:37.280] wants to govern because at the moment it
[00:03:39.920] looks like it's just one seat short of a
[00:03:42.879] majority. And even that would be a
[00:03:44.720] fragile majority.
[00:03:46.879] But listen, the people here tonight are
[00:03:49.920] still in celebration mode. They are um
[00:03:53.120] full of confidence, full of um of of
[00:03:56.400] superlatives really to describe what
[00:03:57.920] they believe is is a breakthrough moment
[00:04:00.239] for this party.
[00:04:02.000] I mean, I've been asking the the
[00:04:03.920] co-leader here tonight, look, what do
[00:04:05.680] you think about this idea of of a
[00:04:07.360] coalition? And they say, look, it's too
[00:04:09.280] soon to decide whether we would do that.
[00:04:11.680] They're also there. It's also
[00:04:13.360] speculation, Brent, that the AFD is
[00:04:15.920] trying to to encourage, persuade
[00:04:19.600] some conservative lawmakers to join
[00:04:21.759] them. It's often said that there's
[00:04:23.840] sympathies within this the Conservative
[00:04:25.680] party Kiran Sakan had for the AFP and we
[00:04:28.960] may see in the next few days whether
[00:04:30.479] that's true. We may also see whether
[00:04:32.560] it's not true. So although at the moment
[00:04:35.040] it's very uncertain whether the AFD will
[00:04:37.120] will have that majority that they say
[00:04:39.440] that they say they want and that they
[00:04:40.720] say they need to form the next
[00:04:42.880] government here. But the bottom line is
[00:04:44.639] this. They're calling Seman the minister
[00:04:47.680] president, the governor of this state.
[00:04:49.600] They're saying they are the victori the
[00:04:51.199] victors and they're saying that they
[00:04:52.720] have landed a massive punch on the
[00:04:54.880] political establishment in this country.
[00:04:57.840] >> Matthew, tonight's vote, is it in favor
[00:05:01.199] of the AFD or would you say it's more a
[00:05:03.759] rejection of the policies coming from
[00:05:06.560] the federal government here in Berlin?
[00:05:12.639] >> Right. It's a combination of the two,
[00:05:14.000] but this is thoroughly a rejection of
[00:05:17.039] the status quo. The AFD has won a
[00:05:20.800] landslide in every segment of the public
[00:05:23.600] except from over 70s. They won 43% of 18
[00:05:28.000] to 24 year olds. That's a huge claim to
[00:05:31.520] be a party of the future. And I think
[00:05:33.440] when when we start to break down the
[00:05:36.160] surveys of voters in this election that
[00:05:38.720] take place in the coming hours and days,
[00:05:41.280] I I'm sure that we will see a trend that
[00:05:44.479] we've noticed in other elections
[00:05:46.080] continue, which is that people are no
[00:05:47.919] longer voting for the AFD as a protest
[00:05:50.560] vote, but they believe that the party
[00:05:52.000] has the answers to dig Germany out of
[00:05:54.560] this period of uncertainty that it is
[00:05:56.639] in.
[00:05:57.600] >> You know, we've talked many times about
[00:05:59.039] the AFD having many critics. What
[00:06:01.919] message does tonight's election, what is
[00:06:05.680] it, what message does the AFD send to
[00:06:08.000] its critics?
[00:06:13.600] They say you've um you've stigmatized us
[00:06:17.600] through the firewall. You have tried to
[00:06:21.120] marginalize us and this is a message.
[00:06:23.680] The message tonight is one that you guys
[00:06:25.840] have got it wrong to the opposition that
[00:06:28.080] you have you've you've charted the wrong
[00:06:30.000] course and essentially you're being
[00:06:31.280] punished for what you've for for doing
[00:06:34.000] that in in recent in recent years
[00:06:36.400] really. So the AFT has always felt that
[00:06:38.639] they've had this victim complex. They've
[00:06:40.479] used it to to um part of their
[00:06:43.600] campaigning and tonight they're saying
[00:06:44.960] look our critics are getting their their
[00:06:48.000] just desserts. They're being punished
[00:06:49.840] for not not delivering the promises that
[00:06:52.240] they say they've made to to the voters
[00:06:54.080] in recent years for in some cases
[00:06:56.639] compromising on their their policy
[00:06:58.720] pledges, on their on their values, on
[00:07:00.240] their their ideological um fundamentals.
[00:07:04.240] And they're saying what we see tonight,
[00:07:06.479] this is a vote here for a change in
[00:07:08.880] German politics, a vote here for for a
[00:07:11.039] party that is promising radical change.
[00:07:13.199] Let's not forget Brent, their manifesto
[00:07:15.120] is like nothing I've seen before in this
[00:07:17.599] country in recent years at least. Um and
[00:07:20.240] and essentially it's promising to tear
[00:07:22.240] up everything that's gone before when it
[00:07:24.160] comes to education, when it comes to
[00:07:25.280] culture, when it comes to policing, when
[00:07:26.560] it comes to immigration. And and I think
[00:07:29.759] that will be interesting to see if they
[00:07:32.160] do manage to get into power, whether
[00:07:35.199] they can start to deliver on those
[00:07:38.080] promises and if not, whether voters
[00:07:40.720] stick with them. There's a lot of
[00:07:42.560] pressure on this party to deliver the
[00:07:45.360] kind of change that they've been
[00:07:46.400] promising for so long and to do a good
[00:07:48.240] job of it. And that's why, you know, a
[00:07:50.800] year ago, if you'd asked me the people
[00:07:52.960] in the party want the AF to win this
[00:07:54.879] election, some people in the party felt
[00:07:56.560] like an outright majority wouldn't be
[00:07:58.560] good for the AF as a whole. It might
[00:08:00.560] damage the AF's reputation if they make
[00:08:03.199] a mess of it. There's still question
[00:08:04.879] marks as to whether or not Ory Seman
[00:08:07.440] who's been a very very effective
[00:08:09.360] campaigner, whether he is an effective
[00:08:12.160] administrator, whether he can actually
[00:08:14.000] get things done. Bren, there's also
[00:08:16.800] question marks about whether he's got
[00:08:18.080] the the staff around him to do to fill
[00:08:21.199] those those important jobs that comes
[00:08:23.520] with being governor. Yeah, I think we
[00:08:25.840] could say with certainty tonight that
[00:08:27.360] there's there questioning now of the
[00:08:30.160] party's appeal to certain voters, but
[00:08:34.399] there is still the question of whether
[00:08:36.159] or not the party can deliver and whether
[00:08:38.560] it can, you know, um take the heat that
[00:08:41.039] comes with accountability.
[00:08:46.399] >> It's an entirely different kettle of
[00:08:48.320] fish to be in campaign mode and to to be
[00:08:51.760] in in government. And that is why
[00:08:53.680] especially in Germany because we're so
[00:08:55.360] used to this multi-party system of
[00:08:58.160] coalitions of coming to agreements of
[00:09:01.279] negotiations of of compromising um that
[00:09:04.320] that that is why the AFP has been so
[00:09:07.200] resolute that if it does govern it wants
[00:09:09.680] to govern with a majority an absolute
[00:09:12.480] majority on its own. It hasn't reached
[00:09:14.640] that tonight. So, it'll be interesting
[00:09:16.640] to see whether they do take that offer
[00:09:19.040] that has come from the smaller BSW
[00:09:22.240] party, which is to to somehow work with
[00:09:24.959] them in some form. Um, it'll be
[00:09:27.440] interesting to see whether they actually
[00:09:28.480] take that offer up. But now is tonight
[00:09:30.800] is about celebration for this party. And
[00:09:33.040] tomorrow they will start to to to look
[00:09:35.279] at those talks and what could possibly
[00:09:37.839] come out of those talks. And it would,
[00:09:39.600] if they're successful, Brent, it would
[00:09:41.519] deliver the first far-right state
[00:09:43.200] government in Germany's postwar history,
[00:09:45.600] which is an incredible milestone in the
[00:09:49.200] post war story.
[00:09:52.320] >> W's Matthew Moore, our correspondent and
[00:09:54.959] a witness to history tonight in
[00:09:57.120] Magdabore.
[00:09:58.640] Matt, thank you.
[00:10:02.560] And joining me here in the studio now is
[00:10:03.920] my colleague and our Berlin bureau
[00:10:05.680] chief, Max Hoffman. He was here right
[00:10:07.440] here at the Big Tuz. We watched
[00:10:08.800] everything happen tonight. Max, let's
[00:10:10.880] just talk about why this matters beyond
[00:10:13.200] the state of Saxony and um unhalt. Why
[00:10:16.160] is it important that the AFD looks set
[00:10:18.880] for a major win?
[00:10:21.760] I think the most important repercussion
[00:10:23.600] immediately in the next days is that it
[00:10:25.519] puts uh even more pressure on the
[00:10:28.079] governing coalition in Berlin on the
[00:10:29.920] federal level which is made up of uh
[00:10:32.000] Fred Matsis the chancellor's uh center
[00:10:35.279] right uh CDU and the social democrats
[00:10:37.760] the SPD together they form a coalition
[00:10:40.560] and they've been under a lot of pressure
[00:10:42.079] in the last months because they um
[00:10:44.399] envision reforms and some of them have
[00:10:46.160] already been decided that are very
[00:10:48.640] controversial at least certain aspects
[00:10:50.560] of are very controversial and some of
[00:10:53.440] those aspects are especially
[00:10:54.880] controversial in in the east. It was
[00:10:57.120] kind of a fragile it's a fragile
[00:10:58.640] coalition
[00:10:59.680] >> because those parties for many things
[00:11:01.600] don't go together that well. They want
[00:11:03.360] different things. Uh there are some
[00:11:05.519] areas where they're on the same page.
[00:11:07.120] For example, uh Ukraine,
[00:11:09.120] >> but uh especially when it comes to
[00:11:10.720] social policies, there's a lot of
[00:11:12.480] trouble. I mentioned the pension reform.
[00:11:14.480] Uh should I go into detail for
[00:11:16.079] >> No, I mean we know that they're going to
[00:11:17.360] want people maybe to wait what another
[00:11:19.360] year or so before they can retire or
[00:11:20.959] they want to get rid of early
[00:11:22.000] retirement.
[00:11:22.720] >> Yeah, early retirement is a thing.
[00:11:24.160] Although it a lot of people in Germany
[00:11:26.160] don't consider it early retirement. It's
[00:11:28.399] about um um uh the possibility that you
[00:11:32.800] still have at the moment if you work 45
[00:11:35.200] years and so you pay into the system
[00:11:37.839] >> during those 45 years that you can then
[00:11:40.480] retire regardless. uh you know you don't
[00:11:43.200] have to be 67 it's you 63 I think is the
[00:11:47.200] >> is the the minimum age and um so uh it's
[00:11:50.959] been recommended by a panel of experts
[00:11:52.880] that this uh be cancelled because the
[00:11:56.000] whole uh pension system uh as many
[00:11:59.360] social systems in Germany is is is just
[00:12:02.240] too expensive yeah
[00:12:03.360] >> for what we have here at the moment and
[00:12:05.680] especially in the east you have uh
[00:12:07.360] people who would be a lot of people who
[00:12:08.959] would be affected you know been working
[00:12:11.120] 45 years and they feel that's deeply
[00:12:13.040] unfair. So that's one of the most
[00:12:14.480] unpopular measures and it's just an
[00:12:16.560] example. There are others
[00:12:19.040] and um so that's why they're already
[00:12:22.160] under a lot of pressure and this just
[00:12:24.240] piles up a lot more pressure because
[00:12:26.880] basically the message you know from
[00:12:29.519] Saxony Anhud to that government and its
[00:12:31.600] courses says nope we don't want that.
[00:12:34.560] >> What about for the chancellor Friedick
[00:12:36.079] Mans? There has been some talk in the
[00:12:38.880] past uh what would happen to him if he
[00:12:41.360] would uh have bad results in uh three
[00:12:46.639] state elections. One of them being
[00:12:48.160] Saxony Anhut which we witnessed today.
[00:12:50.480] We have two more in two weeks.
[00:12:51.839] >> That's right.
[00:12:52.560] >> Including in Berlin where we where we
[00:12:54.320] are at the moment.
[00:12:55.440] >> And there was talk whether he could be
[00:12:58.639] changed you know keeping the same
[00:13:00.240] majority but somebody else steps in or
[00:13:03.600] uh that that was kind of the main
[00:13:05.760] theory. Well, it's pretty complicated
[00:13:08.480] that stuff, you know,
[00:13:10.000] >> and uh personally, I I'm not sure that's
[00:13:13.920] very likely. I would have told you that
[00:13:15.760] before this this election.
[00:13:18.320] >> I'm a bit less sure now because of the
[00:13:20.880] pressure. This is this is piling up, but
[00:13:22.880] it does remain a very complicated
[00:13:25.839] process and we're not we we're not done
[00:13:28.399] yet with Sax Unhub. don't know what the
[00:13:30.480] the definitive result is and whether the
[00:13:32.639] AFT really can govern there because it
[00:13:34.959] falls short of the absolute majority and
[00:13:37.120] the numbers are going down a bit over
[00:13:38.639] the evening. Do do you think we're
[00:13:40.399] looking at though the beginning of um a
[00:13:43.120] a string of electoral successes for the
[00:13:45.920] AFD? I mean once people have smelled
[00:13:48.560] victory and know that they maybe can be
[00:13:51.519] a part of the victorious party that
[00:13:54.160] momentum is hard to stop. Yeah, I think
[00:13:56.160] the key word here is definitely
[00:13:58.560] momentum. The AFD has momentum. No, no
[00:14:01.519] question about it. Everybody likes a
[00:14:03.440] winner. You certainly have those voters
[00:14:05.519] who want to jump on that ship. You know,
[00:14:07.440] that's sailing into the sunset in a
[00:14:09.360] positive way. Want to put it that way.
[00:14:11.839] If we just remain with the facts, um the
[00:14:14.560] next elections are in Berlin and uh
[00:14:16.800] Mcklinburgg western Pal Pomerania up in
[00:14:19.519] north which is also uh eastern state and
[00:14:22.800] the AFD is both polling historically
[00:14:26.160] well for those uh states. is lower in
[00:14:29.279] Berlin but still polling around 18%
[00:14:32.560] which also would have been quite
[00:14:34.000] unthinkable you know five six years ago
[00:14:36.959] and it's the it's polling as the
[00:14:39.440] strongest party up in Meckllinburgg
[00:14:42.240] >> and uh well it'll be interesting to see
[00:14:45.120] how the polls develop from now on
[00:14:47.600] whether the AFD gains you could also
[00:14:50.240] imagine that maybe this victory by the
[00:14:52.480] EFD mobilizes also other forces it did
[00:14:56.079] to a certain extent in Saxony because
[00:14:59.279] the Greens were stronger than expected.
[00:15:02.160] They pulled uh below what they had. So
[00:15:04.480] that might be sort of a counterreaction
[00:15:06.480] but definitely far less than the
[00:15:09.199] momentum of the AFD who is the
[00:15:11.360] uncontested winner this evening.
[00:15:13.279] >> All right, Max Hoffman, good to get your
[00:15:15.519] insight. It's good to have you here at
[00:15:16.560] the big table. I think a good night's
[00:15:18.560] sleep is welld deserved for for you and
[00:15:20.560] for all of us tonight. Thank you.
[00:15:21.839] >> That's true.
[00:15:23.360] Well, tonight's election was also a
[00:15:24.959] referendum on the incumbent state
[00:15:26.800] premier of Saxony, Anhant Schultz. Here
[00:15:30.000] is part of what he said after the first
[00:15:32.240] numbers came out.
[00:15:34.079] >> First of all, we live in a democracy.
[00:15:37.279] So, I would like to congratulate the
[00:15:41.680] strongest party which is the AFD. They
[00:15:44.639] have emerged the strongest party in
[00:15:47.120] Saxony. And as the CDU, we're going to
[00:15:49.839] have to live with this result.
[00:15:53.600] It is an extremely
[00:15:56.480] it was an extremely difficult campaign.
[00:15:59.120] I have to admit for 25 years I've been
[00:16:02.000] on election campaigns, but a campaign
[00:16:05.120] like the one we experienced here is not
[00:16:08.000] one we've ever seen before. I don't
[00:16:10.079] think in any other federal state either.
[00:16:14.079] >> Well, I'm joined now by DW's Bar Rert.
[00:16:16.240] He covered the election festivities. I
[00:16:20.240] use festivities very loosely there with
[00:16:21.920] the CDU in Saxony unhalt. B. How much of
[00:16:26.240] a defeat is this not only for the man we
[00:16:28.959] just saw speaking there Sven Schultz but
[00:16:31.199] also for his party the CDU?
[00:16:36.399] >> Well, this is a very frustrating and
[00:16:38.480] disappointing defeat that Mr. Schulz
[00:16:41.920] when Schulz also accepted immediately.
[00:16:45.040] He says that you cannot talk around it.
[00:16:47.440] It is a defeat because the party is cut
[00:16:51.120] in half actually 18%. This is only half
[00:16:53.839] of the percentage point they got from
[00:16:56.240] the the last election in 2021.
[00:16:59.759] And the position as the strongest party
[00:17:02.800] in the Lantak in the state parliament
[00:17:05.360] behind me there's just gone. Um but when
[00:17:08.480] Schulz did not say what he intends to do
[00:17:11.760] now he did uh say that he will think
[00:17:14.720] about what to do but he has no plans to
[00:17:18.400] declare immediately that he would step
[00:17:20.079] down or would try to form a kind of an
[00:17:24.319] anti- AFD coalition with the other
[00:17:27.439] parties in the land. So we don't know
[00:17:29.840] yet what he uh wants to do and I'm I'm
[00:17:33.520] afraid he doesn't know it himself. was
[00:17:35.760] really yeah a little bit under shock
[00:17:37.840] tonight because they had expected low
[00:17:41.440] numbers but not that devastating as they
[00:17:43.520] were.
[00:17:44.160] >> Did Did they Did you get anyone
[00:17:46.320] attempting to explain tonight's results
[00:17:49.440] and why the Conservatives why they did
[00:17:52.160] so poorly?
[00:17:56.480] Well, if you ask party members at this
[00:17:59.120] uh
[00:18:00.640] yeah, you call it party election party,
[00:18:03.760] there were 200 assembled, they say it is
[00:18:07.200] also to blame not only on the CD Saxon
[00:18:10.799] Anhal, but also on the on the
[00:18:13.440] government, the federal level, the
[00:18:15.600] Christian Democrats under the leadership
[00:18:17.360] of Rem, the chancellor, because um
[00:18:21.280] everybody is um disappointed about what
[00:18:24.160] he did in Berlin. The CDU members here
[00:18:27.280] says and they had to fight against that
[00:18:29.360] and the AFD was playing
[00:18:33.200] along these lines all over the election
[00:18:35.760] campaign. So it was very difficult for
[00:18:38.400] the state CDU to say um and to defend
[00:18:43.200] what is going on in Berlin. Uh but
[00:18:45.679] nevertheless there's al already um
[00:18:48.000] reactions here in Markborg. There were
[00:18:50.240] already little protests and
[00:18:51.760] demonstrations
[00:18:53.280] uh tonight here at the in front of the
[00:18:55.520] Lantak, the state parliament where we
[00:18:57.039] are standing now. There was a a little
[00:18:59.120] gathering from the German um trade union
[00:19:02.080] and Greenpeace and you also had some
[00:19:04.640] Antifa protests near um the station. So
[00:19:08.240] there might be some uh protests going on
[00:19:11.200] also in the next days. So people are
[00:19:13.600] reacting slowly to this results.
[00:19:16.640] >> What about German Chancellor Friedri
[00:19:18.559] Merittz? um you know, this is his party.
[00:19:21.760] Um is he expected um to
[00:19:26.480] step in front of the cameras maybe
[00:19:27.919] tomorrow um and address this? Um we're
[00:19:31.520] assuming that we won't hear anything
[00:19:33.600] tonight.
[00:19:36.640] >> Yeah. No, tonight he will not say
[00:19:38.559] anything. There were rumors that he
[00:19:39.760] would appear uh tonight, but this will
[00:19:42.799] not happen because the results are so
[00:19:46.480] meager that he will not do that. He he
[00:19:48.559] is scheduled to appear in Berlin
[00:19:50.000] tomorrow and as a party leader he has to
[00:19:52.799] say what is next for the party because
[00:19:54.880] this is also a very huge test for the
[00:19:57.120] party not only in Berlin but also here
[00:19:58.799] in Saxony Anhalt there are also some
[00:20:01.039] people that say maybe there are some CDU
[00:20:04.320] members of the new state parliament that
[00:20:07.440] might consider to change the aisle and
[00:20:10.640] vote with the AFD in future. the brunt.
[00:20:13.679] This commitment not to cooperate with
[00:20:15.919] the AFD might also be uh very shaky. Now
[00:20:20.240] >> DW's Baron Riot covering the CDU the
[00:20:24.799] conservatives on this election night for
[00:20:26.640] us in Saxony Anhalt. Baron, thank you.
[00:20:31.840] And to help us put tonight's
[00:20:33.039] developments into a broader context, I'm
[00:20:35.280] joined now by Katya Hoyer. She is an
[00:20:37.440] author, historian, and a visiting
[00:20:39.360] research fellow at King's College
[00:20:40.880] London. She's done extensive research on
[00:20:44.159] extremism in politics. Um, also she's
[00:20:47.840] looked at the east west divide right
[00:20:49.679] here in Germany. Kany, it's good to see
[00:20:52.080] you again. It was good having you during
[00:20:53.520] our live coverage as the votes were
[00:20:55.760] coming in. Um, how much of a success is
[00:20:59.520] this tonight for the AFD,
[00:21:03.200] keeping in mind that we're talking about
[00:21:04.559] just one state election?
[00:21:08.880] Yeah, I think they'll see this as a huge
[00:21:11.039] uh result for them and you saw this in
[00:21:13.360] the way that they responded as well when
[00:21:15.120] the first numbers came out. There were
[00:21:16.960] huge jubilations, people congratulating,
[00:21:20.880] you know, the leaders and one another.
[00:21:23.120] Um so that I think really symbolizes how
[00:21:26.400] they feel about this because they're so
[00:21:28.480] close to power in Sax and Anheld um that
[00:21:31.520] this can really be described as a major
[00:21:34.080] breakthrough for them, I think. And
[00:21:35.760] they've always said that this is about
[00:21:37.280] more than than Sax and Yanhad as well
[00:21:39.520] rather than just wanting to gain
[00:21:41.039] regional power. They've always said um
[00:21:43.520] slogans like let's get our state back
[00:21:45.919] which is of course um ambiguous. It
[00:21:47.919] could mean Saxony and it could mean
[00:21:49.760] Germany too.
[00:21:51.679] >> How would you explain the the AFD's
[00:21:54.559] ability to attract so many voters in
[00:21:57.840] this one state? But I mean the momentum
[00:22:00.080] is there now. It looks like the
[00:22:01.919] political victory is there. How was the
[00:22:04.880] AFD? How was it able to do this?
[00:22:08.799] I think it's a lot of different factors
[00:22:10.559] that come together there, but a huge
[00:22:12.320] impact certainly would have been the the
[00:22:14.480] campaign itself in Saxony Anheld because
[00:22:17.280] for the first time you saw a real shift
[00:22:19.360] in tone away from just anger and
[00:22:22.080] frustration which we saw in previous
[00:22:24.240] campaigns uh towards a much more kind of
[00:22:27.039] upbeat um tone and a much more um
[00:22:29.919] energetic way of campaigning that's
[00:22:32.159] symbolized in the lead candidate um
[00:22:35.280] Ziggmund um who's young and constantly
[00:22:38.159] smiling and and treated like a like a
[00:22:40.400] pop star almost wherever he goes.
[00:22:42.640] >> Um but it's also shown in the campaign
[00:22:44.720] slogans. So when they're now using um
[00:22:47.280] you know slogans like everything is
[00:22:49.280] possible, you can see that they're
[00:22:50.799] really striking a different tone
[00:22:52.320] compared to the kind of angry messaging
[00:22:54.559] of previous years. And would you say
[00:22:57.039] that part of the AFD's success and maybe
[00:23:00.080] also um part of the the conservatives um
[00:23:04.080] you know demise tonight is the fact that
[00:23:06.559] there has been a dir of positive
[00:23:09.840] pictures of the future being
[00:23:11.919] communicated by almost all of the
[00:23:14.320] political parties.
[00:23:16.799] >> I think so. I mean they focused a lot on
[00:23:18.480] the AFD and on warning um of the AfD.
[00:23:21.760] That's of course quite a negative way of
[00:23:23.679] running your campaign is saying to
[00:23:25.280] voters, you can't vote for this party um
[00:23:28.320] because of these reasons, but yet
[00:23:30.240] they're not really giving people a
[00:23:31.600] reason to vote for them. And I think
[00:23:34.080] that's that's been the issue here for
[00:23:35.760] the other political parties. Um because
[00:23:38.000] polling has has actually shown across
[00:23:40.000] Germany that what people want most is
[00:23:42.559] real change is reforms is is a sense
[00:23:45.360] that um there's kind of a new beginning
[00:23:47.840] towards a better future that's on the
[00:23:50.720] economy on migration on the education
[00:23:53.280] system on all sorts of issues. um and
[00:23:55.919] they've just stopped believing that the
[00:23:57.520] mainstream parties can deliver this and
[00:23:59.760] they've not really given them cause to
[00:24:01.840] to think otherwise or to change their
[00:24:03.600] minds on that.
[00:24:04.960] >> The German chancellor Friedick Mets, his
[00:24:07.520] conservatives, they have they've moved
[00:24:10.320] on several issues to the right in
[00:24:13.039] response to recent successes by the AFD.
[00:24:16.960] Why was this not enough to stop the
[00:24:19.840] AFD's surge?
[00:24:23.120] I think what we have seen is because
[00:24:24.960] they have um put changes in place on
[00:24:27.279] immigration is that this in many polls
[00:24:29.679] this has now slipped behind the economy
[00:24:31.679] as an issue. It's still really important
[00:24:33.679] to people but I think um they have
[00:24:36.159] recognized that there's been some
[00:24:37.520] change. I think the CDU CSU at the
[00:24:40.720] federal level have then gone too far in
[00:24:42.720] kind of declaring this issue solved and
[00:24:45.039] this is uh kind of raised alarm bells in
[00:24:47.360] people's heads because there's still um
[00:24:50.000] large numbers even if they're not as
[00:24:51.760] large but still large number of numbers
[00:24:53.760] of people coming to Germany um people
[00:24:56.080] are still complaining that not enough um
[00:24:59.120] immigrants who've committed crimes are
[00:25:00.880] being deported those kinds of things and
[00:25:02.640] if you then go out and go out there with
[00:25:04.720] the messaging of saying you know we've
[00:25:06.720] listened to you done let's move on to
[00:25:08.480] the next topic. Um, a lot of voters will
[00:25:10.960] feel that that that that's not enough
[00:25:13.120] and that they're still going to go for a
[00:25:14.880] party that is saying the same thing. Um,
[00:25:17.360] but I think there was a shift towards
[00:25:19.039] the economy and that's been quite
[00:25:20.480] noticeable and that people have felt
[00:25:22.080] that that at least there was a change in
[00:25:24.880] tone from the federal government on this
[00:25:26.640] issue of migration.
[00:25:28.080] >> You know, we we talked this evening
[00:25:30.159] about connections between the AFD and
[00:25:33.360] the MAGA movement in the United States.
[00:25:36.159] the AFD's surge, it is part of a wider
[00:25:40.159] international phenomenon. Are we seeing
[00:25:42.640] a wider political shift in the west that
[00:25:46.880] is gaining increasing momentum that will
[00:25:50.400] not go away anytime soon?
[00:25:53.279] >> I think that's an important realization
[00:25:55.200] that's beginning to sink in in Germany
[00:25:57.039] now as well because for too long I think
[00:25:59.120] the AFD was treated as a purely East
[00:26:01.600] German phenomenon. Um, and people have
[00:26:04.640] been trying to explain that away by
[00:26:06.559] saying East Germans don't really get
[00:26:08.640] democracy or they were socialized in a
[00:26:10.880] different way because of the the past.
[00:26:13.600] Um, when actually the moment you zoom
[00:26:15.520] out a little bit, you do see that in
[00:26:17.679] fellow European countries, we see very
[00:26:19.919] similar uh trends. If you look at
[00:26:21.840] Austria, the the the FPU, the the
[00:26:24.159] farright party there is also polling at,
[00:26:27.200] you know, 38% or thereabouts. Um,
[00:26:29.840] similar figures in France. Um, so I
[00:26:33.200] think it's important to understand that
[00:26:34.799] this is an international thing. That's
[00:26:37.520] not to say that the same reasons that
[00:26:39.919] are behind that in Germany aren't also
[00:26:42.080] behind that globally. So it's not enough
[00:26:44.159] to just say, look, it's happening
[00:26:46.080] everywhere, so what can we do about it?
[00:26:48.400] Um, I think it is still for each
[00:26:50.080] government and a democracy to work out
[00:26:52.400] what it is that that voters actually
[00:26:54.320] want and try and um do something about
[00:26:56.720] that rather than kind of washing their
[00:26:58.880] hands off these these issues and saying,
[00:27:00.960] you know, it's an international trend
[00:27:02.320] that we can't affect.
[00:27:04.240] >> Historian and author Katya Hoyer. Katya,
[00:27:06.640] we appreciate your insights tonight. We
[00:27:08.720] appreciate you being part of our
[00:27:10.640] coverage. It it turned out to be a
[00:27:12.640] history making um election night here in
[00:27:15.120] Germany. Thank you very much.
[00:27:17.440] Thank you.
[00:27:19.679] >> And here's a reminder now of our top
[00:27:21.360] story. The far-right alternative for
[00:27:23.600] Germany party is projected to win by a
[00:27:26.640] landslide in elections in the eastern
[00:27:29.360] German state of Saxony. But the party
[00:27:32.640] fell short of an absolute majority to
[00:27:34.559] govern on its own. And it's not clear if
[00:27:36.799] it will be able to find a coalition
[00:27:39.679] partner.
[00:27:41.840] You may have to wait until tomorrow to
[00:27:43.440] find out. You're watching DW News from
[00:27:45.760] Berlin. More coming up at the top of the
[00:27:47.679] hour. Our coverage of the election
[00:27:49.520] results will continue into the night.
[00:27:52.080] We'll be back here, of course, tomorrow.
[00:27:53.600] And don't forget, you can get all the
[00:27:55.120] latest news and information around the
[00:27:56.480] clock on our website. That's dw.com. For
[00:27:59.200] all of us here in Berlin, thanks for the
[00:28:01.039] company. We'll see you next time.